Curse

XvArchonvX · Apr 12, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

I've searched around a bit and was wondering if there had been any tests on the added benefit of a bow grip of marksmanship (20% of course). I ask this because I am planning on making a bow strictly devoted to getting maximum dmg output when using barrage. I plan to make a vampiric +15%^50 flatbow, but and considering adding a bow grip of marks to this as well. Please share any opinions on it's usefulness or links to threads/sites that have studied this if there be such. Thnx.

Former Ruling · Apr 12, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

its kind of obvious....20% of the time, skills you use linked to marks get a 1 attribute higher boost.

so +18 would be like +19 20% of the time (roughly).

NOt very good of a change.

XvArchonvX · Apr 12, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

I wasn't sure exactly the dmg difference was between 16 att in marks and 17, but you're probably right. I will probably use this mod on this bow anyways, since I'll likely use it with a build that is less reliant on the defensive mods of the bow. I still want to squeeze out as much dmg potential as I can.

Elurian · Apr 12, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Former is right according to the articles and such about decreased returns on attribute values after 12 the difference between 16 and 17 marks is going to be pretty much negligable. However, if you don't need the grip of defense/grip of fort/grip of enchanting for your build it is a way to squeeze out a little bit of damage. A grip of marks is going to add more damage than a grip of HP or defense and it is pretty much the only way to add damage through the grip besides a creature type specific damage booster (ie. Pruning grip)

Huntmaster · Apr 12, 2006, 10:36 PM // 22:36

I like dropping a level 11 FW that lasts 166 secs and the other rangers are like WAAHHHAATT?

Silent Elvin Ranger · Apr 13, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

supposedly...according to sum of my former guildies (im looking for a new guild) the marksman is also an increased accuracy rating...of whatever the mod is. i think it may be true but its still not that great. 1 question. Does the +1 marksman affect the damage done by base bow AND preperations?

Valerius · Apr 13, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

+1 Marksman only has effect when using skills... so it doesn't effect normal arrow shots

but this may be "ok" for Barrage i guess... since you are spamming... but i'd still rather go with a defense/health grip or an enchanting grip assuming your using JI or Conjure X

SnoopJeDi · Apr 13, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

If it's a strictly barrage bow, I'd say go for the 20% mod.

SnipiousMax · Apr 13, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valerius

+1 Marksman only has effect when using skills... so it doesn't effect normal arrow shots

but this may be "ok" for Barrage i guess... since you are spamming... but i'd still rather go with a defense/health grip or an enchanting grip assuming your using JI or Conjure X

I agree.

But the one build I can see it working with is Barrage. I'm not sure the difference in damage, but to get the absolute most damage, it'd be the grip to use.

Phoenix Arrows · Apr 13, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

If you were going to do a Barrage-build, I would become /E or /Mo and go with a Judge's Insight or Conjure XXX build. That would have more damage, since that is what you're looking for. If you do that, get a 20% enchanting bow grip.

Ohtar Nimloth · Apr 13, 2006, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Personally i think the 20% marks mod is a good choice for the following reasons.

1) Even if you only do 1% more damage you are doing it 20% of the time, therefore one could argue that you are actually do 20% more damage.

2) With a barrage build if you are engaging the max number of targets you have a much higher chance for one or more of the arrows to hit with the boost in marks. six arrows that each have 20% chance to marks increases your odds of at least one hitting to over 50%, thus you could argue you are dealing 50% more damage using the 1% boost 50% of the time thoery.

3) Using the damage formula i prefer to couple my 20% marks with a 10/10 sundering instead of the 5/1 vamp. Even though there is only a very slight chance (around 2%) that you will hit with both +1 marks and the 10% sundering, when it does hit it deals alot more damage than you would expect.

4) +1 marks increases your chance to hit the target and also increases the chance you will get a critical hit. Criticals coupled with marks or sundering are devestating.

5) this is a very usefull bow in both PvE and PvP, especially against warriors.

I think people often want the immediate gratification and often overlook the effects of damage over time. With sundering and marks you are looking at at least one of the two hitting 30% of the time. With a flurry of arrows from a barrage build each arrow has a 30% chance to hit. Do the math...barrage plus sundering and marks=a good solid damage dealing combo

~Ohtar Nimloth

Mesti Arcanus · Apr 13, 2006, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohtar Nimloth

3) Using the damage formula i prefer to couple my 20% marks with a 10/10 sundering instead of the 5/1 vamp. Even though there is only a very slight chance (around 2%) that you will hit with both +1 marks and the 10% sundering, when it does hit it deals alot more damage than you would expect.

I think people often want the immediate gratification and often overlook the effects of damage over time. With sundering and marks you are looking at at least one of the two hitting 30% of the time. With a flurry of arrows from a barrage build each arrow has a 30% chance to hit. Do the math...barrage plus sundering and marks=a good solid damage dealing combo

~Ohtar Nimloth

If you really want DOT, then you should be running Zealous, NOT Sundering. Zealous will keep you cranking out Barrage to no end against 2+ enemies (or 3+ depending on Expertise). If you do want "instant gratification," then stick with Vamp.

But to the OPs question, I run 20% Marks myself, since I do most of my Barrage runs in Tombs with an Orders necro, therefore negating the need for AL/HP buffs from my bow (or Conjure/JI for that matter).

Maria The Princess · Apr 13, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

when "barraging" i use sundering (10%) Bow, with a +30hp mode, becase im using a Sup marks rune. i also strated using a 5:1 vamp bow, as well with +30hp, so i feel secure using +3+1 (my mask) marks all the time without goin too low on HP. more HP=less DP

i find the +1 (20% chance) pretty useless, cuz only 2/10 shots (if youre lucky) will do +1 damage

but to each his own =D

Jenosavel · Apr 13, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohtar Nimloth

Personally i think the 20% marks mod is a good choice for the following reasons.

1) Even if you only do 1% more damage you are doing it 20% of the time, therefore one could argue that you are actually do 20% more damage.

That is the worst math I've ever seen. Since when does .01 * .2 = .2? ...uh, I'll answer. Never. .01 * .2 = .002 So if you do 1% extra damage 20% of the time, you do .2% extra damage overall. The Marks grip isn't as bad as that, because despite people's burning desire to say it does 1% extra damage when it triggers, it actually does a lot more than that. See the bottom of this post for the math concerning the Marks grip.

Quote:

2) With a barrage build if you are engaging the max number of targets you have a much higher chance for one or more of the arrows to hit with the boost in marks. six arrows that each have 20% chance to marks increases your odds of at least one hitting to over 50%, thus you could argue you are dealing 50% more damage using the 1% boost 50% of the time thoery.

The problem with this argument is that Barrage doesn't make the Marks grip any better because it hits more. No matter how often you hit, the Marks grip still gives you the same %damage increase. The only reason Barrage makes it any better is because you're spamming skills, and the Marks grip can only trigger on skills, not normal hits.

Quote:

3) Using the damage formula i prefer to couple my 20% marks with a 10/10 sundering instead of the 5/1 vamp. Even though there is only a very slight chance (around 2%) that you will hit with both +1 marks and the 10% sundering, when it does hit it deals alot more damage than you would expect.

Since you're using the damage formula, I'd have thought you would have come to the conclusion that a Zealous String offers the most benefit to the Marks grip, but that Vampiric is still the most damaging mod... however, since the "+1 Marks = 1% extra damage" and the ".01 * .2 = .2" fiasco, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. If you want to claim you're using math, then please. Use math.

Quote:

4) +1 marks increases your chance to hit the target and also increases the chance you will get a critical hit. Criticals coupled with marks or sundering are devestating.

Criticals are very nice, however the infrequency of the marks grip triggering combined with the infrequency of criticals in general makes the marks grip less than stellar. However, it is the only option for an offensive bow grip at the current point in time. This doesn't make it a great option, merely the only one if you're interested solely in the maximum possible damage output.

Quote:

5) this is a very usefull bow in both PvE and PvP, especially against warriors.

Er... Vampiric outshines all of this immensly against warriors, because while Marks is hampered by armor and Sundering benefits more against high-armored foes, Vampiric completely ignores armor. It goes straight through their armor/enchantments and gives you the full +5 damage every single shot.

Quote:

I think people often want the immediate gratification and often overlook the effects of damage over time. With sundering and marks you are looking at at least one of the two hitting 30% of the time. With a flurry of arrows from a barrage build each arrow has a 30% chance to hit. Do the math...barrage plus sundering and marks=a good solid damage dealing combo

~Ohtar Nimloth

Getting a boost 30% of the time is somehow better than a larger boost 100% of the time? I don't understand that logic, but then again, maybe I'm just in it for that instant gratification.

For those who are interested I've crunched some numbers.

Benefit of the Marksmanship Grip

No Marksmanship skill gains more than +1 to its additional damage at an attribute of 17 over 16 or 13 over 12, and some gain to benefit at all.

Edit: I just found out that the increase from the Marksmanship grip does not affect base damage or critical hit rate, despite the fact that it would seem it should for those skills when it triggers. Unfortunately, that means the most benefit you can get from it is from that +1 damage within the skill description itself. That means that at best you're getting +1 damage 20% of the time, or +.2 damage per skill...

Deleted all of the math I did, since it's now irrelevant. The Marks grip is pretty down right aweful, even when you consider it's the only offensive grip available.

4runner · Apr 13, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

^^^^very impressive, Thanks!

Valerius · Apr 13, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

awesome post Jeno... that actually helped me a lot!

SnipiousMax · Apr 13, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Thanks a ton Jeno. That's answered a few of my questions too.

Iskrah · Apr 13, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohtar Nimloth

Personally i think the 20% marks mod is a good choice for the following reasons.

1) Even if you only do 1% more damage you are doing it 20% of the time, therefore one could argue that you are actually do 20% more damage.

2) With a barrage build if you are engaging the max number of targets you have a much higher chance for one or more of the arrows to hit with the boost in marks. six arrows that each have 20% chance to marks increases your odds of at least one hitting to over 50%, thus you could argue you are dealing 50% more damage using the 1% boost 50% of the time thoery.

3) Using the damage formula i prefer to couple my 20% marks with a 10/10 sundering instead of the 5/1 vamp. Even though there is only a very slight chance (around 2%) that you will hit with both +1 marks and the 10% sundering, when it does hit it deals alot more damage than you would expect.

4) +1 marks increases your chance to hit the target and also increases the chance you will get a critical hit. Criticals coupled with marks or sundering are devestating.

5) this is a very usefull bow in both PvE and PvP, especially against warriors.

I think people often want the immediate gratification and often overlook the effects of damage over time. With sundering and marks you are looking at at least one of the two hitting 30% of the time. With a flurry of arrows from a barrage build each arrow has a 30% chance to hit. Do the math...barrage plus sundering and marks=a good solid damage dealing combo

~Ohtar Nimloth

Oh my! I laughed so hard. Especially that part:
"Even if you only do 1% more damage you are doing it 20% of the time, therefore one could argue that you are actually do 20% more damage."

You know it's one thing to not know what you're talking about, it's fine, but it's another to use a professoral tone to say stupid sh!t.

I can't believe it, were you actually serious?

Huntmaster · Apr 13, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

That is the worst math I've ever seen.

INSERT ALL THAT CRAP HERE...

nerd..

Jenosavel · Apr 14, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huntmaster

nerd..

I figured that out somewhere around here: "Over 10,000 hits were recorded..."